A Deabte on The Debate

I just thought it would be interesting to post a debate my friend and I had via email, mainly centering on the VP debate and the lies that were told there. Lots of interesting links. Enjoy:
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From: ?????
Sent: Fri 10/3/2008 4:01 PM
To: Roflsaurus-Rex
Subject: Debate Facts
http://exchange.sjci.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://news.aol.com/elections/debates/article/some-facts-adrift-in-clash/199290

is that Palin's name that comes up more than Biden's on lies???
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From: Roflsaurus-Rex
Sent: Sat 10/4/2008 2:48 PM
To: ?????
Subject: RE: Debate Facts
1.) How is this a lie?
PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."
THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters — McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control.

2.)
PALIN: "We cannot afford to lose against al-Qaida and the Shia extremists who are still there, still fighting us."
THE FACTS: She appeared to confuse the two main Muslim sects in Iraq. Al-Qaida is solely made up of Sunni Muslim militants. Through the course of the war, U.S. forces fought ferocious opposition from both the Sunnis and the country's dominant Shiite sects. Now, both groups are largely maintaining a cease-fire with the U.S. A much-diminished al-Qaida, mainly foreign fighters, remains the primary threat.

This little quote points out that Palin was in fact correct, in that Shia extremists were fighting our forces. It ignores the fact that they still are, regardless of where they are coming from.

3.)
PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."
THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."

Clearly now, two months later, it is either a done deal, or close to being one. She would be the authority on this subject, correct? And regardless of when construction is scheduled to begin, Sarah was right when she said it is "North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets." Again, this article fails to point out where she was wrong.

4.)
PALIN: Said a McCain-Palin administration "will support Israel," including "building our embassy ... in Jerusalem."
THE FACTS: Moving the U.S. Embassy from its present location in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a perennial promise of presidential candidates courting the Jewish-American vote. In fact, moving the embassy is actually required by U.S. law. But successive administrations of both parties, including President Bush's, have made the same pledge only to find that the realities of Middle East peacemaking have forced them to invoke a waiver to delay it. Jerusalem is claimed as a capital by both Israel and the Palestinians, and Israel's occupation of east Jerusalem is not internationally recognized. The city's status is a key issue of disagreement in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
This piece points out the difficulty of moving the embassy, but it does not state that it will not happen. If Palin says that that is what her ticket aims to do, then that is what her ticket aims to do. No one has presented any evidence to the contrary.

5.)Your article doesn't even mention Biden's blunder on climate change. He actually said that humans are the sole cause of climate change. He is completely ignoring the fact that, as Palin pointed out, the Earth goes through cyclical heating and cooling processes. Is he now denying the last seven ice ages?

6.) According to your article, Palin lied seven times to Biden's five. However, as I pointed out, four of Palin's "lies" weren't lies at all.
Original Lie Score:
Palin: 7
Biden: 5
Revised Lie Score:
Palin: 3
Biden: 5
Then, with the edition of Biden's (perhaps unkown) global warming lie:
Final Lie Score:
Palin: 3
Biden: 6

Check out the link to my finished blog about the debate:
http://www.roflsaurus-rex.blogspot.com/
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From: ?????
Sent: Sun 10/5/2008 12:24 PM
To: Roflsaurus-Rex
Subject: RE: Debate Facts
im not going to the extreme to prove how many wrongs i see here, theres no sense arguing with a stubborn republican
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From: Roflsaurus-Rex
Sent: Sun 10/5/2008 1:03 PM
To: ?????
Subject: RE: Debate Facts
Why don't you at least try? If you don't, one must assume that you can't.
Admittedly, I didn't take the time to point out which of Biden's supposed "falsehoods" were actually true (which could compromise the accuracy of my "final lie count"), but I didn't believe it necessary.
It is true that I am both stubborn and Republican, but regardless of the pointlessness of arguing with a liberal who is sadly unaware of any factual information regarding said argument, I will try to do so anyway, on the off chance that they are intellignent enough to see the blunders of their leaders. I believe that you are an inteligent liberal, ?????, and in your case, that isn't an oxymoron.
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From: ?????
Sent: Sun 10/5/2008 8:16 PM
To: Roflsaurus-Rex
Subject: RE: Debate Facts
Alright then:

for starters

your #1, palin was quoted as saying "He sounded that warning bell." which would imply that he started it, which obviously as indictated by the article, he didn't and Chuck Hagel did

BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."
THE FACTS: Of course it would, because it's meant to pay for insurance. That's like saying money for a car loan will go straight to the car dealer.

that isnt a lie, as a matter of fact, the article just seems to restate it

BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."
THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.

though misleading, it is still true despite the fact that more than one corporation will receive tax breaks

BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."
THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

again misleading yet not a lie, my defense on this one is a little weak so i have a cnn website here to defend me: http://exchange.sjci.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/02/fact-check-does-mccain-want-to-deregulate-health-care-like-banking/

Original Lie Score:
Palin: 7
Biden: 5
Revised Lie Score:
Palin: 3
Biden: 5
Then, with the edition of Biden's (perhaps unkown) global warming lie:
Final Lie Score:
Palin: 3
Biden: 6
Revised Final Lie Score:
Palin: 4
Biden: 3

so depending on whether you disagree with the one lie about the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, either Biden won or we can shake hands and call it a tie
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From: Roflsaurus-Rex
Sent: Sun 10/5/2008 8:51 PM
To: ?????
Subject: RE: Debate Facts
Palin didn't mention Chuck Hagel, because Chuck Hagel has nothing to do with the debate. it may imply that McCain warned first, but the truth of the statement was that McCain did in fact warn the Senate About Frannie and Freddie, while neither Obama nor Biden did any such thing. Palin stated this to debunk Biden's claim that McCain was in favor of over deregulation.


BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."
THE FACTS: Of course it would, because it's meant to pay for insurance. That's like saying money for a car loan will go straight to the car dealer.

that isnt a lie, as a matter of fact, the article just seems to restate it

True, Biden didn't lie, but he either a.) had no idea what he was talking about or b.) was trying to pass this statement off as something it wasn't. He tried to make it look as if McCain was giving American tax dollars to the big Health Insurance Corporations, when in fact he is giving the money back to the American people, on the condition they use it for health insurance. This wasn't a lie, but it was a clever manipulation of the truth.

BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."
THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.

though misleading, it is still true despite the fact that more than one corporation will receive tax breaks

The article failed to point out the reason for the tax cut: for the American corporations to stay competitive. While the rest of the world lowered corporate taxes, we stayed behind. This means for money for foriegn companies, and less for ours. (Check this link for the explanation in detail http://exchange.sjci.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/JobsforAmerica/taxes.htm)

BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."
THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

again misleading yet not a lie, my defense on this one is a little weak so i have a cnn website here to defend me: http://exchange.sjci.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/02/fact-check-does-mccain-want-to-deregulate-health-care-like-banking/

Your article agrees with me and your original link in that Biden manipulated the truth to make it look like whatever he wanted. Deregulation of the Health Care Industry in that Health Care can be purchased over state lines will increase competion, lower prices, and, contrary to the CNN blogger's beliefs, give less power to the Corporations.

Your link also "lied" in a certain sense of the word. Deregulation did not solely cause the Wall Street crisis. Yes, corruption within Frannie Mae and Freddie Mac were key contributers, as well as corporate and individual greed, but the Community Reinvestment Act, further regulating the industry, caused much more damage than deregulation did or could. You can read up about it here. http://exchange.sjci.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act
It was changed many times, each causing more damage down the road.

Here's a vid on it:
http://exchange.sjci.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIgqfM5C8lY

Overall, Biden didn't lie as much as he told "white lies" or manipulated and distorted the truth. His biggest lie, as I said, was on global warming.
Original Lie Score:
Palin: 7
Biden: 5
Final Lie Score:
Palin: 3
Biden: 5
Then, with the edition of Biden's (perhaps unkown) global warming lie:
Revised Final Lie Score:
Palin: 4
Biden: 3
Witholding Information or Manipulating Truth:
Biden: 3
CNN: 1
___________________________________________________________________
From: ?????
Sent: Sun 10/5/2008 9:42 PM
To: Roflsaurus-Rex
Subject: RE: Debate Facts
well of course she didnt mention Hagel because she was trying to make it sound like McCain was responsible thats why the article did

also, global warming is bs (in my opinion), there are cyclical changes but indeed we are the cause of global warming (the problem) not global warming (the natural increase in temperature occuring from time to time)
he is most likely refering to the melting of the ice caps which just screws up the entire climate of the world
i wouldnt know why he would want to lie about natural climate change cause there is no chance of getting away with it

so even with the misleading information, yet true, its practically a tie, personally, i don't like any of the candidates, obama has bad ideas as well as McCain
i am not ever going to risk going into the army so Obama > McCain and Palin isn't ready, 2 years of executive experience doesnt qualify you to be vice president, but 35 years of experience in the government seems greatly more qualifying don't you think, so Biden > Palin
call me liberal, i do have certain issues where i would place my "vote" on, but these are ones that sway my opinion
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From: Roflsaurus-Rex
Sent: Mon 10/6/2008 8:05 AM
To: ?????
Subject: RE: Debate Facts
The global warming thing: Humans have a minimal impact on Earth's climate. The melting of the ice caps is caused by the long and drawn out cyclical process of heating and cooling that the Earth undergoes. Biden denied this, and he can get away with it becaue of the extreme liberal hollywood media that all agree with him. Environmental activists are currently trying to sue major oil corporations for "spreading doubt" about global warming. The people that are doing the sueing are actually scientists. Doesn't this go against everythign that science stands for? Challenging the current stadard and ideas? So Biden can easily get away with his lies.

You are correct, currently the score is about at a tie, but I found another article correcting the blatant lies Biden told that your article missed. Some are quite amusing.

http://exchange.sjci.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122325448093406451.html

Here are some highlights:

1.) Start with Lebanon, where Mr. Biden asserted that "When we kicked -- along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, 'Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it.' Now what's happened? Hezbollah is a legitimate part of the government in the country immediately to the north of Israel."
The U.S. never kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, and no one else has either. Perhaps Mr. Biden meant to say Syria, except that the U.S. also didn't do that. The Lebanese ousted Syria's military in 2005. As for NATO, Messrs. Biden and Obama may have proposed sending alliance troops in, but if they did that was also a fantasy. The U.S. has had all it can handle trying to convince NATO countries to deploy to Afghanistan.
2.) Speaking of which, Mr. Biden also averred that "Our commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan." In trying to correct him, Mrs. Palin mispronounced the general's name -- saying "General McClellan" instead of General David McKiernan. But Mr. Biden's claim was the bigger error, because General McKiernan said that while "Afghanistan is not Iraq," he also said a "sustained commitment" to counterinsurgency would be required. That is consistent with Mr. McCain's point that the "surge principles" of Iraq could work in Afghanistan.
3.) Then there's the Senator's astonishing claim that Mr. Obama "did not say he'd sit down with Ahmadinejad" without preconditions. Yet Mr. Biden himself criticized Mr. Obama on this point in 2007 at the National Press Club: "Would I make a blanket commitment to meet unconditionally with the leaders of each of those countries within the first year I was elected President? Absolutely, positively no."
4.) Closer to home, the Delaware blarney stone also invited Americans to join him at "Katie's restaurant" in Wilmington to witness middle-class struggles. Just one problem: Katie's closed in the 1980s. The mistake is more than a memory lapse because it exposes how phony is Mr. Biden's attempt to pose for this campaign as Lunchbucket Joe.
To sum it all up:
We think the word "lie" is overused in politics today, having become a favorite of the blogosphere and at the New York Times. So we won't say Mr. Biden was deliberately making events up when he made these and other false statements. Perhaps he merely misspoke. In any case, Mrs. Palin may not know as much about the world as Mr. Biden does, but at least most of what she knows is true.
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From: ?????
Sent: Mon 6/10/2008 4:00 PM
To: Roflsaurus-Rex

interesting, but I still have to feel Obama - Biden 08

to be honest, i dont have the slightest care for anything about global warming because i'm a jerk and i won't be here when the real problems arise

but enough of global warming, its a pointless topic seeing we really cant do much about it

i don't feel like debating about anything, i've been walking from 3-3:45 because there was communication issues so my mom didnt tell my grandmother than i wasnt staying after today (Monday) so i was by ????? when my grandmother found me after she had a conversation with my mom which ended with, "I GOTTA GO!" so to make this story shorter, im tired
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